Part 1: Heath and Bob (1 Thessalonians 2:8) 

Series Introduction: Of Zombies and Social Media Dust Ups

A little over a week ago, I saw a Twitter/X tweet from Heath Lambert announcing that he would be sharing a “long-form” podcast/manuscript about the state of the biblical counseling movement. I assumed Heath would be talking about strengths, areas for growth, developments, and a vision for the future. Thinking that, I began assembling a team of biblical counseling leaders to share guest posts for my RPM Ministries Truth & Love blog site so that we would have a spectrum of views on the present state and future vision for biblical counseling.

Well…I in was in for a surprise!

We had just moved from Washington to Florida. Shirley and I were out shopping for furniture when a friend of mine sent me a text image of a zombie! I soon learned this was a reference to Heath’s post, Priests in the Garden, Zombies in the Wilderness, and Prophets on the Wall: The Current State of the Contemporary Biblical Counseling Movement.

This was not your father’s genteel summary of the strengths and weaknesses of the modern biblical counseling movement. Unless your father was Jay Adams, who, like Heath, was quite skilled at stirring up “discussion” (some might say, “debate”).

I would have rather been in my new lanai soaking in the sun in our new Florida home. Instead, I received texts, emails, private messages, and calls from brothers and sisters in Christ who were “concerned” about Heath’s podcast. They wanted to know what I thought.

Then, after I read Heath’s manuscript, they wanted me to publicly share my perspective. I was (and am) very hesitant. I do not like public debates. I do not enjoy conflict. I just want to enjoy my wife as we enjoy our lanai together.

So I started slowly. Rather than share my thoughts on what Heath said, I shared some biblical principles on how anyone might respond if they thought they were facing unjust criticism. You can read it here: 3 Biblical Principles to Apply in Response to Heath Lambert’s Confrontation.

“So Why Respond, Bob?”: Safety in a Multitude of Counselors 

Heath’s initial post was over 8,000 words. That’s about 8 typical blog posts (about 4 or less of my long posts!). That’s about two chapters in a book. Many biblical counselors love, love, love what Heath wrote. Many other biblical counselors are in strong disagreement with what Heath wrote.

I thought I would let social media take the lead, tweet some, and leave it at that. Then I saw that Heath had produced a second post. In that post he indicated he was going to share a series of posts sharing his perspective on the (dire) state of the modern biblical counseling movement.

The Bible says there is safety in a multitude of counselors (Proverbs 11:14). Heath is sharing his perspective on the modern biblical counseling movement. I will add my perspective to this conversation by engaging with Heath’s posts.

It’s probably important for you to know that I’ve been speaking into the current state of the biblical counseling movement for quite some time. Specifically, over the past two-to-three years I have shared 55 resources related to current issues in biblical counseling. Here’s a link to all of those resources: 55 Resources for Counseling the Whole Person: The Bible, the Body, the Embodied-Soul, Research, Science, and Neuroscience.

“Are You Taking This Personally, Bob?”: I Don’t Think I Should 

I don’t think there’s any reason for me to take this personally. Heath hasn’t mentioned me (so far). Initially, he’s focusing a lot on “clinically-informed biblical counseling.” While I have many good friends who use the label “Clinically-Informed Biblical Counselor,” I have never used that title for myself.

Those who know me well, will not be surprised that I use a much longer self-description. I am all about being comprehensive! You can read about my 16-word label for my counseling here: 6 Biblical Counseling Convictions. If you want a short-cut, here’s my self-description:

• • Gospel-Centered, Theologically-Saturated, Relationship-Focused, Church History-Informed, Research-Aware Soul Physicians of Embodied-Souls

Heath and Bob: “So Why Not Do This Privately?” 

Since I announced my intentions to engage Heath’s public posts privately, some of my biblical counseling friends have asked me (and Heath) to consider having this conversation privately.

I have no problem having private conversations with Heath. In fact, my mind goes back about ten years ago. I can picture myself in my living room in my home in Indiana talking on the phone privately with Heath about a controversial issue he was engaged in with a fellow biblical counselor. Heath and I have talked privately before; we could do it again.

However, this is not a private offense. Heath has not personally offended me. As I mentioned, I don’t view Heath as talking about me (maybe he is).

Heath initiated a public confrontation aimed at biblical counselors he sees as infected zombie priests. I am responding publicly to Heath’s public writings.

One of my friends explained that people could see two Christian leaders model biblical relationships if we talked privately. Well, no. They would not see or hear or read anything if we talked privately.

However, depending on how I (and Heath if he chooses to engage with me) interact publicly, then people could see two Christian leaders modeling biblical interaction about difficult issues. I have a history of doing exactly that. My friend, Pastor David Murray, and I engaged in a public blog interaction years ago. Read the comments on the posts and you’ll see that people did indeed benefit from the respectful, humble ways we sought to interact.

People fear it’s going to get messy if I respond publicly to Heath. Friends, it’s already messy.

People fear it’s going to get divisive if I respond publicly to Heath. Friends, it’s already divisive.

What’s the alternative to publicly responding? Talk to Heath privately. But others have already done that. And Heath’s response was his follow-up post where he “doubled-down” on his initial post by point-by-point defending as correct every issue that people privately or publicly raised with him.

So what’s the alternative if no one publicly responds to Heath? As people say these days, “Crickets.” Meaning, silence. Meaning, Heath has the floor, has the say, has the only word on the current state of the modern biblical counseling movement.

Now, I’m not naïve. I likely have 10% of the “following” that Heath has. And 1% of the team that Heath has. Heath’s podcast is professionally done, manuscripted. He’s in a suit and tie in an office with someone filming him. For me, right now it’s 5:00 AM and I’m sitting on the bathroom floor typing. (We’re staying at a friend’s home while our new home is finished.) I don’t have the “clout,” or nearly the “reach,” or the “following” that Heath has. Heath will receive 75,000 Twitter/X views. I’ll receive 10,000…maybe. But that’s okay.

My voice is not as loud as Heath’s. But my voice counts, too.

And so does yours.

Modeling Scripture and Soul Biblical Counseling: Truth and Love Interactions 

Rather than jump right into exploring what Heath said in his first post, I want to talk about Heath and Bob. Why? Because it is biblical to focus not only on truth but also always on love.

“We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our own lives as well, because you had become so dear to us” (1 Thessalonians 2:8).

Biblical counseling is always Scripture and soul.

Interactions about biblical counseling must always be Scripture and soul, truth and love, theology and relationships.

I’ll engage plenty with Heath’s theological assessments. But first, let’s lay a scriptural, biblical, relational context of brothers in Christ.

Heath and Bob: A Dozen Similarities 

Rather than jump right into exploring what Heath said in his first post, I want to talk about Heath and Bob.

I’ve considered Heath a friend. I consider Heath a colleague in ministry. I consider Heath a fellow biblical counselor. I consider Heath a brother in Christ.

I was recently reflecting on a number of similarities.

1. Heath and I have both shared publicly about our difficult childhoods. You can read part of my story here (and see an adorable picture of “little Bobby”). You can listen to part of Heath’s story here.
2. Heath and I both have extensive higher education training in theology, pastoral ministry, Bible, and the languages. I have eight years of higher education in these areas, including a BS in Bible and Pastoral Studies, and a Th.M.
3. Heath and I both have been pastors. I have served for twenty years in pastor/elder roles.
4. Heath and I have both been seminary professors. I have served for twenty-five years as a seminary professor. (A story few people know—when Heath left his role at SBTS/Boyce, I was asked several times by the administration to consider taking that position. Each time I said “no thank you” because I did not believe God was leading me to leave the ministry I was in at that time.)
5. Heath and I both were Executive Directors of leading biblical counseling organizations. Heath led NANC/ACBC. David Powlison, Steve Viars, Randy Patten and other biblical counseling leaders asked me to be the founding Executive Director of the Biblical Counseling Coalition.
6. Heath and I have each written many biblical counseling books. You can read about the first twenty-three of my twenty-five books here.
7. The same editor and VP of Acquisitions at Zondervan oversaw Heath and I writing books on the theology of biblical counseling—in the same year. You can learn more about my book, Gospel-Centered Counseling: How Christ Changes Lives, here.
8. Heath and I served together as founding members of the Biblical Counseling Coalition.
9. Heath wrote chapters in several books that I oversaw/edited.
10. While Executive Director of NANC/ACBC, Heath had me speak numerous times at the NANC/ACBC National Conference.
11. My wife and I prayed for Heath diligently every morning for months. Heath was undergoing numerous serious brain surgeries. Shirley had suffered a life-threatening hemorrhagic stroke. We sensed a kinship in the shortness of life and in the seriousness of brain health issues.
12. Heath and I both live in Florida (I’ve been a Floridian for all of 7 days). (I wanted a dozen similarities, so I had to add this one!) 

Heath and Bob: Half-a-Dozen Differences 

Similarities, yes. But, of course, we are different people. Some of these differences are simply my perceptions of Heath. He may see these differences differently!

1. Prophet/Priest: I see Heath as a “prophet” who sees himself, at least in part, as called to speak out against errors he perceives. I see myself, at least in part, as a “priest,” called to empathize with the suffering and shepherd the hurting.
2. Public Debates: As I’ve said, I do not enjoy public debates. I don’t know if Heath “enjoys” them, but he does seem to get into his fair share of public disagreements. Heath and Eric Johnson. Heath and Brad Hambrick. Heath and Donn Arms over Heath’s views of Jay Adams in Heath’s dissertation. Heath and half of the biblical counseling movement (with his “Zombies” post). For me, I tread into these public discussions very reluctantly, very hesitantly.
3. Powlison or Adams: While Heath and I are both “men of conviction,” my perception is that we tend to hold those convictions a bit differently. I tend to see myself personality-wise more like David Powlison who loved nuance and loved seeing both sides—affirmations and denials. I am very much a both/and thinker. I perceive Heath to be more like Jay Adams—cut-and-dry, black-and-white, cut-to-the-chase, be the prophetic voice of confrontation, say with conviction: “this is clearly right and that is clearly wrong!” God makes us each fearfully and wonderfully unique. So neither “style” is “better.”
4. Age: We are different ages. I am old enough to be Heath’s father. I have adult children around Heath’s age. Again, neither age is better, of course. But we grew up in different eras. I’ve seen life from the perspective of a man Heath’s age; and now I see life from the perspective of a man in a much later stage of life. Different. Not better.
5. Perception of Others/Style of Relating to Others: We see others differently. At least that’s my perception. I’ll get into this more when I start engaging the first couple of paragraphs of Heath’s first podcast. There seems to be an “us-versus-them” mindset in how Heath looks at others. There seems to be a “my group-versus-your-group” mentality. I could be wrong. It’s just my perception. I see myself more as seeking to build bridges. My “whole thing” as the Biblical Counseling Coalition Executive Director was bring people together, creating synergy, harmony, seeking peace/unity. On the Truth/Love Continuum, maybe we differ a bit on what we emphasize, or how we seek to journey on that continuum. Some people perhaps might see me as “too empathetic,” or even as “too wishy-washy.” Some people perhaps might perceive Heath as “too harsh,” or “too in-your-face.”
6. Addressing Concerns with _______-Informed Biblical Counseling: Heath and I have each publicly written about people using the phrase “______-informed biblical counseling.” If you read Heath’s posts and my posts, you will likely detect differences in our approach to addressing those concerns (note, we have both shared some concerns). Here’s one of mine to consider: Ponderings About Being a “______-Informed Biblical Counselor.” I shared this post almost two years ago. It was first a Twitter thread (back when Twitter was Twitter and not X, and back when you had to keep to a limited number of characters in each tweet). Here are four of my tweets. Tweet 6: Here’s where we might want to be a tad self-critical as “______-informed” #BibleCnIs our focus foremost on the Word’s wisdom or the world’s research? If we don’t have a rich biblical-theological foundation then it’s easy for the world’s information to trump the Word’s wisdom. 6/ Tweet 7: Is there a place for #BibleCn to engage with the world’s research? Yes. I’ve “taken heat” for affirming that. I’ve written much about it: 55 Resources for Counseling the Whole Person: God Designed Us as “Embodied Souls” 7/ Tweet 16: I suspect, or at least hope, that concerned #BibleCn folks might be a tad less nervous about “____-informed BC” if they heard biblical counselors often repeating that first and foremost we want to be “biblically-theologically-informed biblical counselors.” 16/ Tweet 17: And I suspect they might be a tad less nervous about “____-informed BC” if they saw us as #BibleCn consistently demonstrating how we use the sufficient Scriptures to carefully assess and evaluate research. 17/

What Are My Hopes? 

Like I said, I wanted to introduce you to Heath and me—at least through my eyes, before we jumped into my thoughts on Heath’s podcasts.

What are my hopes in engaging with Heath in future posts?

1. Iron-Sharpening-Iron (Proverbs 27:17): I hope that I can learn from Heath, and that Heath can learn from me.

I hope Heath and I hear each other’s voices. 

2. Being Fair and Balanced: I am praying that I am fair and balanced in my engagement with Heath. I do not anticipate that I am going to agree with Heath’s overall assessment of other biblical counselors. But I do want to listen well to Heath, not mischaracterize what he says, and represent accurately his positions—even if/when I disagree with them.

I pray that I hear Heath’s voice accurately. 

3. Sharing a Different Perspective: Heath is sharing his perspective on the current state of the modern biblical counseling movement. Heath and I seem to perceive the biblical counseling world quite differently. I want more than one voice speaking into this important issue of what makes biblical counseling truly biblical. I do not view the modern biblical counseling world the same way Heath views it. We both seek to see with new eyes (to use David Powlison’s language). But my eyesight and Heath’s eyesight are different when it comes to how we see other biblical counselors. 

I want people to hear another biblical counseling voice. 

4. Shepherding Faithful Biblical Counseling Shepherds: There are some hurting biblical counseling shepherds out there. No, they aren’t so “touchy-feely” that they can’t take confrontation. Instead, they are faithful biblical counselors who believe they have been “targeted” and “mischaracterized” by Heath’s first podcast, and by being labeled zombie-infected priests. On the other hand, many other biblical counselors are literally rejoicing that Heath, in their minds, has had the guts to say what they have wanted to say—to call out the syncretists, the “new integrationists! As I see it, those so-called syncretists are actually faithful biblical counselors. 

I want to give voice to faithful biblical counselors who are being called zombie-infected priests.  

Join the Conversation 

If you’re a follower of my blog, then you know that for two decades now I have ended most of my posts with “Join the Conversation.” This is where I specifically invite you into interaction about my blog post.

Here’s my suggestion/request related to this series of posts.

If you choose to join the conversation, rather than being “team Heath” or “team Bob,” perhaps when you post on my site or on social media, seek to be “fair and balanced.”