1 Corinthians 6:11
In response to my recent series on abuse and marriage, Elisabeth posted a passionate comment which I quote directly.
I respond to her comment below.
What are your thoughts?
Elisabeth’s Post:
“As I post my first comment, I must warn any potential readers that I have very strong views on this subject, which may offend a few people.”
“I am including the following information not as any kind of evidence that my insights or opinions have stronger validation or importance over that of anyone else. I only wish to provide a background as to why my opinions on this subject are so especially strong. I have worked as a Domestic Violence Counselor, Outreach Court Advocate, and Shelter Crisis Counselor at a Domestic Violence Shelter/Center. I can honestly say that, during my work there, many women faced additional difficulties because of an unhealthy religious background. I intentionally use the term “unhealthy” to describe, in my opinion, an unfortunate, incorrect and even dangerous view of many comments by Paul in both Corinthians and Timothy.”
“Furthermore, although domestic violence comes in many forms and levels of extremes, for most habitual offenders/perpetrators, there is very little evidence that these people can be rehabilitated. In fact, most domestic violence centers will not counsel the perpetrators due to this fact and others. This will, I am sure, cause some strong feelings, but the success stories I have seen, usually involved a legal separation, followed by a divorce. However, I would be very interested in any information that would should programs that have a better probability of helping the perpetrators of these crimes to become non-violent, loving, truly God-lead spouses.”
Elisabeth,
Dr. Kellemen’s Response
Elisabeth, thank you for your comment and for your passion for protecting those who have been abused.
The Study Says
To be honest, I am often intrigued when I hear a generic statement that “studies show” or “there is very little evidence that” and then no footnotes or links are given. And even if the footnotes are given, we all know that with the plethora of info out there, anyone could “cherry pick” “studies” that support their view. I am not saying you are doing this, I just mention this for our readership. I’d like to read any specific studies you have. I’d like to see if the combined work of the Body of Christ, civil authorities, biblical counseling, group ministry, accountability, etc., were used.
Changing Lives with Christ’s Changeless Truth
Further, and most importantly, the Bible says that through Christ’s resurrection power change can and does occur in any and all issues:
“Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:10-11).
Christ does change lives. Christ’s Gospel of grace not only saves from sin but also empowers us to be sanctified–to change, to grow, to mature. It is supernatural to mature.
As a counselor and pastor, if I only counseled people when the stats said it was highly likely that change would occur, then my job would be a lot easier. It is the “hard cases” that bring the tears and also the joy of victory. I have personally seen the Body of Christ work together to bring healing to marriages and change to abusive relationships many times.
I do think your post brings up an important point: biblical Christian counseling needs more outcome studies. It would be extremely amazing to an onlooking world to show the power of Christ’s Gospel of grace to change lives with Christ’s changeless truth.
I’d love to hear from other readers on this issue.
Bob
I decided to read the original post and then Elisabeth's post. Now let me just say that I am a fool and a sinner of the worse kind. I know that there is no good in me except for Christ so this will sound bias to Elisbath's view to some degree.
Christ's sacrifice gave us the opportunity to change our lives and lead God fearing lives on earth. He gave us the keys to spiritual success that helps us to control the emotional man or woman in us. Like anything else you can have as much of anything as you like if you work for it. So if someone who is a perp or a abuser decides to give their life to Christ and they work at building that life with Christ then that person will change not just in the heart but also in the Mind… "Be Ye Transformed by the renewing of your mind" – He or she will ultimately change their stinkin thinkin. "No man In Christ Keeps On Sinning"
Now about statistics, those numbers are limited, not factual, they are a tool to lead us into the direction our local view should be not the catalyst for our world wide views. And further more our country – the US is the biggest Hippocrates here, exactly like the Jews of old who in many cases put God in the corner somewhere while we steer and then when we crash we blame him.
Christ is the answer for any and all situations, this isn't a cliche its the truth. If you, Elisabeth, allow your personal experiences to become the light of your eyes then you will never see hope in these situations but hopelessness, but if you allow yourself to experience Christ and see those same situations through Christ's eyes I'll bet you would become more hopeful to each and every abused person you will get in contact with.
From Rollie Barnes
Of course, God can save and cleanse from the most depraved of sinful situations. We have individual anecdotal reports beginning with Paul. But I wonder if in this area there is a greater percentage of Romans 1 God giving over to their desires so that outcome based studies of rehabilitation would seem skewed to the world. I wonder if it is even possible to quantify the work of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks Elizabeth and all for your thoughtful comments on the subject of domestic violence. It is truly a complex subject with many variables. My marriage is one that was transformed by Christ's grace. My husband no longer uses drugs, or is violent. He has accountability partners, has had much counseling and has become a believer. However, it takes two to tango so to speak, God and the abuser. A person indeed has to be willing to submit to the authorities that God has instituted and humble themselves to receive God's healing touch. I for one am a believer!
However, as a counselor, I would never advocate that a woman stay in a situation that was abusive if her spouse showed no remorse and no true repentance that was proven through long term counseling and submission to God's real work in his life. God transformed my marriage, and my family, including bringing back two sons from the realms of drug abuse as well. He is using all of us for his glory. I realize that all stories don't end like mine, but there is reason for hope.
I had to undergo treatment myself to learn healthy new behaviors. I had to cooperate with God too. There were areas of hurt in my life which put me at risk. Prayer, fellowship with supportive friends, and a deep study in God's Word held me up during these difficult times. There were three times of very necessary separation. Only God can guide a woman. Each situation is unique, and it is so important not to group or classify all of these situations together.
There are unfortunately many people who will not submit to God, and will be lost for eternity. Let me also add that it is the church's responsibility to protect these women and their families, and to support them as they seek safe haven. Those who have not walked in our shoes can be judgmental, and hurt the woman further. I know that firsthand. So, a word of caution for those who love and care for us. Use your words wisely. Sermonizing and judging a woman when the situation is not fully understood can be so hurtful, and can damage the relationship the person has with the woman who is truly being victimized.
It is true; we cannot "help" the abusers. That is God's business. However, the transforming power of the resurrection cannot be underestimated. Praise be to the King who lives!!
Thanks Elizabeth and all for your thoughtful comments on the subject of domestic violence. It is truly a complex subject with many variables. My marriage is one that was transformed by Christ's grace. My husband no longer uses drugs, or is violent. He has accountability partners, has had much counseling and has become a believer. However, it takes two to tango so to speak, God and the abuser. A person indeed has to be willing to submit to the authorities that God has instituted and humble themselves to receive God's healing touch. I for one am a believer!
However, as a counselor, I would never advocate that a woman stay in a situation that was abusive if her spouse showed no remorse and no true repentance that was proven through long term counseling and submission to God's real work in his life. God transformed my marriage, and my family, including bringing back two sons from the realms of drug abuse as well. He is using all of us for his glory. I realize that all stories don't end like mine, but there is reason for hope.
I had to undergo treatment myself to learn healthy new behaviors. I had to cooperate with God too. There were areas of hurt in my life which put me at risk. Prayer, fellowship with supportive friends, and a deep study in God's Word held me up during these difficult times. There were three times of very necessary separation. Only God can guide a woman. Each situation is unique, and it is so important not to group or classify all of these situations together.
There are unfortunately many people who will not submit to God, and will be lost for eternity. Let me also add that it is the church's responsibility to protect these women and their families, and to support them as they seek safe haven. Those who have not walked in our shoes can be judgmental, and hurt the woman further. I know that firsthand. So, a word of caution for those who love and care for us. Use your words wisely. Sermonizing and judging a woman when the situation is not fully understood can be so hurtful, and can damage the relationship the person has with the woman who is truly being victimized.
It is true; we cannot "help" the abusers. That is God's business. However, the transforming power of the resurrection cannot be underestimated. Praise be to the King who lives!!
Thanks Elizabeth and all for your thoughtful comments on the subject of domestic violence. It is truly a complex subject with many variables. My marriage is one that was transformed by Christ's grace. My husband no longer uses drugs, or is violent. He has accountability partners, has had much counseling and has become a believer. However, it takes two to tango so to speak, God and the abuser. A person indeed has to be willing to submit to the authorities that God has instituted and humble themselves to receive God's healing touch. I for one am a believer!
However, as a counselor, I would never advocate that a woman stay in a situation that was abusive if her spouse showed no remorse and no true repentance that was proven through long term counseling and submission to God's real work in his life. God transformed my marriage, and my family, including bringing back two sons from the realms of drug abuse as well. He is using all of us for his glory. I realize that all stories don't end like mine, but there is reason for hope.
I had to undergo treatment myself to learn healthy new behaviors. I had to cooperate with God too. There were areas of hurt in my life which put me at risk. Prayer, fellowship with supportive friends, and a deep study in God's Word held me up during these difficult times. There were three times of very necessary separation. Only God can guide a woman. Each situation is unique, and it is so important not to group or classify all of these situations together.
There are unfortunately many people who will not submit to God, and will be lost for eternity. Let me also add that it is the church's responsibility to protect these women and their families, and to support them as they seek safe haven. Those who have not walked in our shoes can be judgmental, and hurt the woman further. I know that firsthand. So, a word of caution for those who love and care for us. Use your words wisely. Sermonizing and judging a woman when the situation is not fully understood can be so hurtful, and can damage the relationship the person has with the woman who is truly being victimized.
It is true; we cannot "help" the abusers. That is God's business. However, the transforming power of the resurrection cannot be underestimated. Praise be to the King who lives forever!!
There seems to be a great dearth in effective discipleship in the church and in counseling situations. My wife grew extremely frustrated working as an addictions counselor in a secular environment because she couldn't invoke or encourage Holy Spirit in the process. But in cases of deep wounding and learned defenses, God is really the only option. No person can do anything themselves, regardless of how much they "know" about God and the Bible.
It would seem to me that in cases of abuse, if the abusive person is unwilling to undergo spiritual direction and do the painful work of dealing with the underlying causes then there really is no hope for them of changing.
I guess I see Elisabeth as presenting the reality of the situations because of a lack of true, life-changing discipleship and spiritual direction/counseling. But I believe there is hope for change if a person is willing to undergo the work of it.
It is not surprising that the comments on this subject reaffirms the complications we face as a result of the fall. I am particularly moved by Terri's personal testimony and her experience of God's powerful movement in her life and in the lives of her family members. I am sure it has taken a lot of dependence and submission to God for her to be able to openly share the love of God shown in her life. I applaud her for her courage and thank her for the testimony.
As a Christian and a counselor, I can readily understand the comments of Elisabeth as well and I am thankful that God is using her in the capacity of ministering to the abused. As Dr. K has indicated, we are called to be ministers of reconciliation to all people, the most difficult of which can be abusers. I am reminded however that I cannot be all things to all people. As believers, we are all saved, but we have differing gifts. In the body of Christ, there are those who can work with the abused and also those who can work with the abuser. We are different and that's okay. Where we are not to be different is in Biblical principles, we are called to forgive and to keep the door open for a relationship with God. I am to pray for the abuser as well as the abused. In fact, many of the abused that I have worked with experience exciting freedom when at the appropriate time they begin and complete the process of forgiveness. Forgiveness, however, does not necessarily equate to a lack of nor a removal of consequences.
As one of you has written, it is God that does the work, not I. I am convinced more and more each day that my function is to be obedient and willing to be used of God, regardless of the situation. May God richly bless each of your lives and ministries.